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Been a long time... Saying hello...

#1 User is offline   Nasdasdy Icon

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 09:01 AM

I'm in the Los Angeles area, I attended a meeting over a decade ago, now I'm back to extend my regards to the PCHC.

I've had a 1965 Cadillac Superior Coach for about 12 years. It has since fallen apart on me. I seem to have accidentally achieved a career this year... So my agenda is to restore my Caddy to her former glory.

I'll be around, mostly getting my fingers dirty. For some reason my parking lights are turning on when I try to crank the engine... Found a wiring diagram online, seems my wiring correlates with the 60, 62 series...


Eventually Catch You @ a Meeting,
-Nasdaddy
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#2 User is offline   Nasdasdy Icon

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 03:08 PM

Tested the Starter, and it's good. Had to replace the battery today. Engine wont start. Think the engine's seized!


...
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#3 User is offline   Mark V Icon

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 04:52 AM

Hi Nasdaddy.

When you say it won't start, what makes you say the engine is seized? Described the sounds the starter makes when you turn the key.
It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. -- Bertrand Russell
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. -- Dr Seuss
I hate mankind, for I think myself one of the best of them, and I know how bad I am. -- Joseph Baretti
Humankind cannot stand very much reality. -- T. S. Eliot
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#4 User is offline   Nasdasdy Icon

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 06:09 AM

View PostMark V, on 20 May 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Hi Nasdaddy.

When you say it won't start, what makes you say the engine is seized? Described the sounds the starter makes when you turn the key.


Well, my attempt to start it was with a screwdriver at the Starter's contact points. I get 3 sounds. 1) the spinning humming sound. 2) Then there's the Rattle sound Chk-chk-chk-chk sound. 3) the single Chck or click sound.
There's no Vroom, or Urrrr sound like the engine moving. The Fan is not budging. & like I said the starter tested good @ the Autozone. Battery is new with 850 cranks and 1k cold cranks.

Engine was rebuilt, around less than 500 miles since the rebuild. Then it sat for a few years. If I were to guess, maybe around 4 years?

??? Suggestions?

-Nasdaddy
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#5 User is offline   Daniel Scully Icon

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 12:59 PM

View PostNasdasdy, on 20 May 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Well, my attempt to start it was with a screwdriver at the Starter's contact points. I get 3 sounds. 1) the spinning humming sound. 2) Then there's the Rattle sound Chk-chk-chk-chk sound. 3) the single Chck or click sound.
There's no Vroom, or Urrrr sound like the engine moving. The Fan is not budging. & like I said the starter tested good @ the Autozone. Battery is new with 850 cranks and 1k cold cranks.

Engine was rebuilt, around less than 500 miles since the rebuild. Then it sat for a few years. If I were to guess, maybe around 4 years?

??? Suggestions?

-Nasdaddy

Well, my attempt to start it was with a screwdriver at the Starter's contact points. I get 3 sounds. 1) the spinning humming sound. 2) Then there's the Rattle sound Chk-chk-chk-chk sound. 3) the single Chck or click sound.
There's no Vroom, or Urrrr sound like the engine moving. The Fan is not budging. & like I said the starter tested good @ the Autozone. Battery is new with 850 cranks and 1k cold cranks.

Engine was rebuilt, around less than 500 miles since the rebuild. Then it sat for a few years. If I were to guess, maybe around 4 years?

??? Suggestions?

Quote

Well, my attempt to start it was with a screwdriver at the Starter's contact points. I get 3 sounds. 1) the spinning humming sound. 2) Then there's the Rattle sound Chk-chk-chk-chk sound. 3) the single Chck or click sound.
There's no Vroom, or Urrrr sound like the engine moving. The Fan is not budging. & like I said the starter tested good @ the Autozone. Battery is new with 850 cranks and 1k cold cranks.

Engine was rebuilt, around less than 500 miles since the rebuild. Then it sat for a few years. If I were to guess, maybe around 4 years?

??? Suggestions?


Try turning the engine over from the crank pulley nut or take the flex plate cover off and try turning it with the flywheel with a flywheel tool or just a large screwdriver,sounds like possible a bad ground or low voltage at the starter?
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#6 User is offline   Nasdasdy Icon

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Posted 20 May 2013 - 04:21 PM

View PostDaniel Scully, on 20 May 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Well, my attempt to start it was with a screwdriver at the Starter's contact points. I get 3 sounds. 1) the spinning humming sound. 2) Then there's the Rattle sound Chk-chk-chk-chk sound. 3) the single Chck or click sound.
There's no Vroom, or Urrrr sound like the engine moving. The Fan is not budging. & like I said the starter tested good @ the Autozone. Battery is new with 850 cranks and 1k cold cranks.

Engine was rebuilt, around less than 500 miles since the rebuild. Then it sat for a few years. If I were to guess, maybe around 4 years?

??? Suggestions?



Try turning the engine over from the crank pulley nut or take the flex plate cover off and try turning it with the flywheel with a flywheel tool or just a large screwdriver,sounds like possible a bad ground or low voltage at the starter?


I will give it a try, thanks. Let you know what happens, maybe tomorrow or Wed. Jeez, if the engine is screwed it's just gonna break my heart -not in a Homosexual way, but in a Manly Car Man Beer kind of way.
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#7 User is offline   Mark V Icon

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 04:51 AM

The starter solenoid may also be on it's way out. Those buggers can sometimes behave as though they are possessed and unpredictable, especially whey they are near the end of their service life.
It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. -- Bertrand Russell
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. -- Dr Seuss
I hate mankind, for I think myself one of the best of them, and I know how bad I am. -- Joseph Baretti
Humankind cannot stand very much reality. -- T. S. Eliot
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#8 User is offline   Nasdasdy Icon

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Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:01 PM

View PostMark V, on 21 May 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

The starter solenoid may also be on it's way out. Those buggers can sometimes behave as though they are possessed and unpredictable, especially whey they are near the end of their service life.


(Well, I typed long response and lost it trying to upload an image. So this next attempt may not be as eloquent)

The Starter has a Lifetime Warranty, but they told me it was good. Can't get a free replacement unless I destroy it. Ideas?

My neighbor recommended a battery array to multiply the voltage to 24V to the Starter try to move the FlyWheel. (Not to destroy the Starter, just to move the engine, LOL)

I read online about someone having a concoction of Marvels Mystery Lube, Fuel and some other Fuel Cleaning Additives and pouring it down the spark-plug holes and letting it sit for a week. Could that work? Is it safe? I mean, I'm not going to end up with more problems if I try it, right? Anyone know where I can buy a tool to rotate the pulley?

I've been checking out a wiring diagram, studying it... Does everyone's Coaches' match the wiring diagrams in the engine and dash? I have a yellow wire that goes nowhere from the Starter. Wiring Diagram shows that yellow wire going to the positive on the Ignition Coil. Instead I have a Yellow and a Black wire at the Ignition Coil. The yellow appears to be a resistance wire jumped from the black and ending at the same terminal on the Coil. The Black wire has a fabric sleeve and disappears into the firewall near where the yellow jumps from it.


Well, since my Parking Lights are turning on when I try to start the car, I'm gonna get a Short Finder...
I've made like Zero progress as of yet, Geez!
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#9 User is offline   Mark V Icon

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:10 AM

First off, it helps to understand why there are two wires coming off the + lead on the coil; one is 12Volts the other is ~9Volts. 12V is only needed during engine cranking. When the engine is running, the coil only needs 9V. A common "fix" for weak ignition was to simply run 12V to the coil all the time. The problem with that is the coil gets overheated and the points burn out prematurely thereby greatly shortening the service life of those parts.

The 12V line should be an 18-gauge yellow wire that goes from the + terminal on the coil to the R terminal on the solenoid. The 9V source is a resistance wire that goes from the ignition switch(key) and also connects to the + terminal on the coil.

There is a sequence that occurs when (in a non-molested car) the ignition key is turned:
  • The solenoid is energized
  • When the solenoid is energized, it
    • energizes coils within it that push the starter gear into the flywheel
    • pushes a contact plate that closes the circuit to
      • energize the starter motor and
      • energizes the 12V lead that goes to the + terminal on the coil.
Doubling the voltage is NOT recommended. What your system needs is more amperage. The safer course is to first verify if the engine is truly seized. Begin with installing thick battery cables. In lieu of replacing cables, you can double up on the cables you already have if you have extra cables or jumper cables. You see, current(electricity) is like water; if you only need a little then a small straw will work just fine. If you need to put out a fire, a straw will not allow enough water to flow which is why you need a big (large diameter) fire hose. Thin gauge wires restrict the amount of current that can flow through them and will heat up when overloaded. No matter how many amps your battery cranks out, if they all cannot reach the starter, it will not have enough power to do what it's supposed to as well as it can. Hence thicker wires. If you still feel like you need a second battery, hook them up in parallel (+ to + and - to -), NOT in series. That way you increase your available amps rather than doubling your voltage. Increasing voltage is like increasing water pressure. If you increase water pressure in the straw from the above example, the straw will rupture. In the case of an electrical system, something will burn out.

To manually rotate the engine, you should be able to use an engine turning tool that engages the flywheel/flexplate. Those can be found anywhere that sells engine building equipment and supplies.
Posted Image

The soaking suggestion is sound, just keep the spark plugs out when you attempt to crank the engine. If you have any standing liquid in the combustion chamber, you may create a hydraulic collision scenario unless the liquid has someplace to go (the spark plug hole). A hydraulic collision scenario may cause damage such as cracked heads, block, and/or broken pistons. That's a one-way ticket to sucks-ville and you just became the mayor.

Good luck and keep us posted.
It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. -- Bertrand Russell
Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. -- Dr Seuss
I hate mankind, for I think myself one of the best of them, and I know how bad I am. -- Joseph Baretti
Humankind cannot stand very much reality. -- T. S. Eliot
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#10 User is offline   Nasdasdy Icon

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:29 PM

View PostMark V, on 22 May 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

First off, it helps to understand why there are two wires coming off the + lead on the coil; one is 12Volts the other is ~9Volts. 12V is only needed during engine cranking. When the engine is running, the coil only needs 9V. A common "fix" for weak ignition was to simply run 12V to the coil all the time. The problem with that is the coil gets overheated and the points burn out prematurely thereby greatly shortening the service life of those parts.

The 12V line should be an 18-gauge yellow wire that goes from the + terminal on the coil to the R terminal on the solenoid. The 9V source is a resistance wire that goes from the ignition switch(key) and also connects to the + terminal on the coil.

There is a sequence that occurs when (in a non-molested car) the ignition key is turned:
  • The solenoid is energized
  • When the solenoid is energized, it
    • energizes coils within it that push the starter gear into the flywheel
    • pushes a contact plate that closes the circuit to
      • energize the starter motor and
      • energizes the 12V lead that goes to the + terminal on the coil.
Doubling the voltage is NOT recommended. What your system needs is more amperage. The safer course is to first verify if the engine is truly seized. Begin with installing thick battery cables. In lieu of replacing cables, you can double up on the cables you already have if you have extra cables or jumper cables. You see, current(electricity) is like water; if you only need a little then a small straw will work just fine. If you need to put out a fire, a straw will not allow enough water to flow which is why you need a big (large diameter) fire hose. Thin gauge wires restrict the amount of current that can flow through them and will heat up when overloaded. No matter how many amps your battery cranks out, if they all cannot reach the starter, it will not have enough power to do what it's supposed to as well as it can. Hence thicker wires. If you still feel like you need a second battery, hook them up in parallel (+ to + and - to -), NOT in series. That way you increase your available amps rather than doubling your voltage. Increasing voltage is like increasing water pressure. If you increase water pressure in the straw from the above example, the straw will rupture. In the case of an electrical system, something will burn out.

To manually rotate the engine, you should be able to use an engine turning tool that engages the flywheel/flexplate. Those can be found anywhere that sells engine building equipment and supplies.
Posted Image

The soaking suggestion is sound, just keep the spark plugs out when you attempt to crank the engine. If you have any standing liquid in the combustion chamber, you may create a hydraulic collision scenario unless the liquid has someplace to go (the spark plug hole). A hydraulic collision scenario may cause damage such as cracked heads, block, and/or broken pistons. That's a one-way ticket to sucks-ville and you just became the mayor.

Good luck and keep us posted.


Thank you so much for the pic... i was gonna buy a tool to try to rotate it from the pulley wheel... I'll look for the tool in the pic instead.
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#11 User is offline   Nasdasdy Icon

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:16 PM

View PostNasdasdy, on 22 May 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

Thank you so much for the pic... i was gonna buy a tool to try to rotate it from the pulley wheel... I'll look for the tool in the pic instead.


So my neighbors' mechanic advised me to pour some diesel through the spark plug holes before trying to move the flywheel. I told him it's a gasoline engine and I intended to use gasoline. He replied that gasoline won't clean anything. Diesel will work better and drain into the oil pan, and since I should do an oil change anyway. Is that right, diesel?? I was told since something in the piston is made of carbon, if the engine is stuck, their likely to crack or break if I attempt to move it with too much force. So I should soak it with the diesel.

I got the tool -want to bike ride to work so won't have time for her 'til the weekend. Short Finder wont arrive 'til mid next week. Looks like next week will be full of answers...

Thanks,
-Nasdaddy
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#12 User is offline   Nasdasdy Icon

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:03 PM

CrankShaft MOVED... Thanks for the Tool Advice. Got some shiatsu to take care of and the restoration can begin! I am freakin' extatic! Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!

To quote: "I'm as happy as a little girl" -Dieter
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#13 User is offline   Randy B Icon

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 01:45 PM

View PostNasdasdy, on 26 May 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:


To quote: "I'm as happy as a little girl" -Dieter


Well, Mark..... you have received the highest accolades possible.

Now what? Going to Disneyland?



Thor
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#14 User is offline   Nasdasdy Icon

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 06:39 AM

-Still working on the car... Shorts are a painful thing to find... I've been going to my car, like every day, or occasionally every other day, after work, to try to get her to crank...


Looking to getting her Running, Restored, and pretty much Presentable, to be able to join you all in your cruising and events...
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#15 User is offline   Veitteekic Icon

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 03:35 PM

Thanks guys, got to say i have been made to feel very welcome from everybody, will remember this when i get to see a newbie login for the first time, pass on the respect is the go....I am lmpressed by the comunity feeling
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